Meso-Theory

New post on “Moroni’s America” – The North American Setting for the Book of Mormon

A fair characterization? by Jonathan Neville I’m hearing some people don’t think it’s a fair characterization when I say that proponents of the Mesoamerican and two Cumorahs theories claim that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled the Church about the Hill Cumorah being in New York. Whether it’s fair or not may be in the eye of the beholder, but it is accurate. At any rate, I’m not trying to be unfair. I’m trying to summarize the position of the Mesoamerican proponents as succinctly as I can. I’d be happy to change the wording if someone can email me a more succinct, descriptive, and accurate clause. ___________________   The basic premise of the “two-Cumorahs” theory is that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled the Church because in Letter VII they declared it was a fact that the final battles took place in the valley west of the Hill Cumorah in New York. They also said that Mormon’s depository (Mormon 6:6) was in the same hill.   Letter VII and the Mesoamerican theory are directly incompatible. Mesoamerican proponents have to believe Letter VII is false. That’s why they invented the “two-Cumorahs” theory in the first place.   In Mormon’s Codex, John Sorenson wrote “There remain Latter-day Saints who insist that the final destruction of the Nephites took place in New York, but any such idea is manifestly absurd.” (Emphasis added.)   I don’t know any Mesoamerican advocates who disagree with Brother Sorenson about that.   To the contrary, major LDS scholars and educators have endorsed and praised Mormon’s Codex.    Terryl Givens wrote the Foreword, claiming that “John Sorenson has again upped the ante with what will immediately serve as the high-water mark of scholarship on the Book of Mormon.”   The book was published by Deseret Book Company and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship at BYU.   Brant Gardner and Mark Alan Wright reviewed Mormon’s Codex, stating that “Sorenson’s name has become synonymous with a specific geographic correlation between the Book of Mormon and a Mesoamerican geography.” They criticized elements they disagreed with, but not Brother Sorenson’s condemnation of the idea of the New York Cumorah. Which is no surprise, because like other Mesoamerican advocates, they too reject Letter VII.   Book of Mormon Central frequently cites Mormon’s Codex in its “KnoWhy” series.   On its home page, BYU Studies links to Brother Sorenson’s maps from his book, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, which are essentially the same ones used in Mormon’s Codex.   Brother Sorenson isn’t the only one who has written about this idea that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled the Church about Cumorah being in New York. In fact, if there are any Mesoamerican proponents who disagree–that is, who accept Letter VII as accurate–I’d very much like to know about them.    I’ve discussed this point with many of the main Mesoamerican proponents at FairMormon, the Interpreter, Book of Mormon Central, BYU, and BMAF. They all think the New York Cumorah was a false tradition. They all think Joseph and Oliver didn’t know where the Book of Mormon took place, that they speculated, that Letter VII was just their opinion, that Joseph changed his mind later in life, and that he and Oliver were wrong about Cumorah being in New York.   Because Letter VII was reprinted so many times, even at Joseph’s specific request, and because every one of Joseph’s contemporaries agreed with the New York Cumorah, Mesoamerican proponents claim Joseph and Oliver misled the Church about Cumorah being in New York. (Some try to soften the claim by instead asserting that Joseph passively adopted a false tradition, but that doesn’t account for his repeated endorsement of the letters.)   The Mesoamerican advocates also say David Whitmer was wrong when he said he met the messenger carrying the plates to Cumorah, that Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball and others were relating an amazing joint “vision” of a hill in Mexico when they spoke about how Joseph, Oliver, and others entered the depository in the Hill Cumorah in New York on multiple occasions, etc.   Furthermore, Mesoamerican advocates claim that Joseph Fielding Smith, Marion G. Romney, Mark E. Peterson and others who have formally and specifically spoken or written about the New York Cumorah were all sharing their own opinions–and they were wrong, even when they spoke about it in General Conference. _________________   If anything I’ve written in this post is inaccurate, I’d be happy to correct it.    Meanwhile, right now the most egregious example or rejecting Letter VII, in my opinion, is the abstract map all new BYU students have to learn. It not only teaches that Cumorah is not in New York (i.e., that Joseph and Oliver were ignorant speculators who misled the Church about that), but that it is in no real-world location.   If you can’t see Cumorah on this resolution, I put an enlargement below.   The BYU map all new BYU students must learn.   According to BYU, Cumorah is anywhere except in New York. By comparison, here’s a map of Tolkein’s Middle Earth.    Source: Book of Mormon Concensus   Jonathan Neville | August 14, 2017 at 3:36 pm Moroni’s America Map Here

Many current members of the Church think the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory (M2C) has been around from the early days of the Church.

Here is one of the clearest explanations of M2C that I’m aware of:

To return especially to the location of the original hill Cumorah: We find no word by angels or by the voice of the Lord that the hill where Joseph found the plates was the historic hill. No revelation in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants so designates it, and nowhere in his history did Joseph Smith write of it as Cumorah. In Times and Seasons volume 3, page 771, he says “stands a hill,” and “this hill,” and the angel told him to come to “that place” each year. At the final time he says that he went to “the place” where the plates were deposited…. 

I have no objection to that hill being also called Cumorah, with the understanding that the ancient hill Cumorah is still undiscovered, and that sometime its secrets will be revealed and come to the knowledge of God’s people…. 


For thirty-five years I held the error about Cumorah, until Early Cothell, of Independence, took the blinds off, and then study made all plain to me. But there have been so many controversies that I have hesitated for years about writing on this matter for publication, although urged to do so. But now, because many are dissatisfied with the old theory, I present this article in the interest of truth, that error be removed and the truth be made plain….

You might think this is a quotation from the latest no-wise from Book of Mormon Central Censor, or BYU Studies, or another publication of the M2C citation cartel. Indeed, many of the writings of the M2C citation cartel are virtually identical to this passage.

Notice especially the emphasis on how “study” made two-Cumorahs plain. This is the M2C orientation; i.e., unless you are trained correctly, you can’t understand the Book of Mormon or the teachings of the prophets.

Or perhaps you think this passage comes from the 1980s, when David Palmer, John Sorenson, FARMS, etc., made the M2C theory popular among Latter-day Saints.

In reality, this passage is about 100 years old.

It was written by Elder H. A. Stebbins, of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS), before he died in 1920.
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Today’s LDS students and youth know little to nothing about the RLDS. It was a group that rejected the leadership of Brigham Young. They adopted this resolution in 1854:

No. 1. Resolved, That this conference regards the pretensions of Brigham Young, James J. Strang, James C. Brewster, and William Smith and James Wood’s joint claim to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as assumptions of power in violation of the law of God, and consequently we disclaim all connection and fellowship with them. 

Elder Stebbins served on the committee that compiled these resolutions, which you can see here: http://www.centerplace.org/library/Study/GCRall.htm

The passage was quoted by L. E. Hills, another RLDS, who published it in a 1924 book titled New Light on American Archaeology.

You can read it yourself here:

Notice that after quoting Stebbins, Hill went on to write, “I want later to take up the question of where Moroni was when he made the abridgment of the Jaredite record, and also show that he never left Mexico until he had completed that abridgment and nearly all of his writings.“

Of course, this directly contradicts the teachings of every LDS prophet and apostle who has ever formally discussed the hill Cumorah, including members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference.

Today’s M2C intellectuals agree with Stebbins and Hills. 
They disagree with Joseph Fielding Smith, Marion G. Romney, Oliver Cowdery, etc.

The M2C cartel doesn’t even want you to know what the prophets and apostles have taught, as we’ve seen over and over, with the latest example being the Saints book.
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This idea of “two Cumorahs” prompted Church Historian and Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (JFS) to object. He explained that

Because of this [two-Cumorahs] theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case.

A full discussion is here:

For many people, the choice between Hills and JFS is an easy one.

If you’re a proponent or follower of M2C, you think Stebbins and Hills were correct.

If you accept the teachings of the LDS prophets and apostles about the New York Cumorah, you think JFS was right.

Regardless of whom you believe, you can find plenty of evidence from archaeology, anthropology, geography and geology to support your belief. You can interpret the text to fit your belief.

That’s why this whole issue boils down to whether you choose to follow the prophets or to follow the intellectuals who say the prophets are wrong.
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Source: Book of Mormon Wars